Camp Counseling
I just saw the movie Jesus Camp and liked it quite a bit. Like many another good documentary, it presents its information without obvious bias of its own. The movie follows a few of the kids that attend a summer camp that teaches Christian values and Biblical studies. To provide transitions and a bit of counter-commentary, the film intersperses some segments from a radio program that rants against the Christian Right hijacking the U.S. government.
I discussed the movie with God. The striking thing about the camp is it’s blatant use of brainwashing techniques to indoctrinate the kids. Rather than teach the kids how to discern if something they do is right or wrong, they’re told what is right or wrong and programmed to blindly adhere to what they were told. The kids’ effusive imaginations are channeled into having religious visions and speaking in tongues and they’re taught that they must devote their every action and thought to the Lord.
Now devoting your life to God can be done in a good way and it can be done in a bad way, depending on what you do with that devotion. But, what you do with your life you should do freely; you should do it by choice. In a song by the group Rush, there’s a lyric that goes, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” I’d like to add a corollary, if you’re programmed to decide, you haven’t made a choice.
If you want to get into Heaven, you’ve got to do the right things, for the right reasons, and because you want to do them.
I’d just like to finish up with one more lyric, “Teach your children well.”
I like your observations, Toby, but I must say, I would have liked to hear about some of what God said. Perhaps that will come tomorrow.
The oldest Christian faith ( Catholicism ) has more caveats that you can count on this subject to contradict the truths you stated, such as, if you aren’t baptized, you can’t get into Heaven, even if you’re only a few days old. I can’t accept that concept – way too much outside influence.
The general beliefs of Protestants are just as you stated. We need to do good, and, because we have all sinned, we need to be honestly repentant for the bad things we know we have done. Lip service ( like 25 Hail Marys and a lit candle ) will get you nowhere. And just as importantly, you have to choose to be one with Christ. I haven’t seen the film you mention ( though I would like to ), it seems that those people have conveniently bypassed that step.
And here’s an interesting fact ( that again, I think the folk in the film probably elided over ) : Evangelical-Pentacostals believe that if you speak in tongues, it can be either the work of God or the work of Satan. If no one in the congregation can translate what you have said, then a Devil speaking through you. If someone can, then it is God, or perhaps an Angel. I’m not too sure on that point.
I really, really like the dialogues you’ve been having, but I do wish that more folks would join in.
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I was raised Catholic. My mother told me that if you spot the priest 50 bucks before the baby is born, that he will make sure that the baby goes to heaven even if there is no chance for baptism. When my father died, my mother gave the priest a “gift” of 100 bucks. I asked her why she did that because she gives money to the church every week. She said it is tradition to give cash to the priest. I think she was afraid his baptism wore off.
One more thing…please don’t devalue all the “hail marys” and “our fathers” I had to pray after confession. You make me feel like I wasted alot of my childhood. Maybe the priest tried to take up all my time so I wouldn’t learn about evolution, you think?
Devotion of anything to a non-existent being is… well, stupid. Yeah, I know God talks with Toby and Toby talks with us, but the Gospel According to Toby has the same teleological problems that all “good books†have: lack of proof.
How do we know that Toby isn’t talking to paint thinner hallucinations? Or Harvey the Rabbit? Or, wait a minute, the manifestation of Allah in an Angel, who then comes back and says, “Waitaminute – those last few words were intercepted by Satan.â€
Divine packets need better encryption and decryption methods.
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Yeah, I’ve been wondering about how to show you all that I’m really talking to God. I mean, I know that I’m not huffing paint thinner but you don’t. I think I’ll have to ask God what to do about this and then get back to you in a day or two.
devotion to something that can’t be proven to exist is called Faith.
Being that no one can either prove or disprove God’s existence, to say that God doesn’t exist is on the same level as saying that He does. It’s a pointless endeaver to ask someone to prove to someone else that God exists. Just as pointless as proving that God doesn’t exist.
You say that “to say that God doesn’t exist is on the same level as saying that He does.” I’ve got to dispute this point. My default condition when discussing reality has got to be that things don’t exist unless there is some evidence that they do. Just going by the word of people without looking at the evidence is what leads to things like the Enron implosion. This is the point, I think, that the Flying Spaghetti Monsterpeople are trying to make. We can say anything exists, but in a rational view of the universe, extraordinary things require extraordinary evidence. The more out of the realm of our everyday experience something is the more proof we should require to believe that it’s true.
American Heritage’s definition of faith:
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
I have faith that my life will be better tomorrow. I have no way to prove this, nor any data to support this. But I need this belief, so that I can get through this day, and the next. Not everyone has this need, obviously, but I do.
I have faith that eventually the American people will see that gays and lesbians are being treated as second class citizens, and afford everyone the same right to marry. Again, I have no proof that this will happen.
Desire factors into this, of course, because most of us would like a happy ending to our story. I desire to feel better; I desire freedom.
I do not have a need to understand what each grain of sand is made of. I take it on faith that there are no calories in Splenda.
Love has no empirical evidence to support it. We know, because of millenial assertions, that it seems to be out there, but it can’t be measured on an empirical scale.
So, you cannot tell me that God exists without relying on hearsay. And you can’t tell me that he does not exist, exept by hearsay. So yes, the Does/Doesn’t debate is on the same level. Neither side can prove their case.
I’ve had this quote on my bulletin board for 20 years. I think it adds to this subject another aspect worth looking at.
“ Information is not synonymous with knowledge. Information is only data, parts of the whole. Knowledge has a moral imperative to enhance intellectual and spiritual unity.†Ruth Nanda Anshen
How dare you question god’s followers!!??